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	<title>Comments on: Shabbat Elevator Controversy</title>
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		<title>By: Bill Durkin</title>
		<link>http://www.ourjewishcommunity.org/2009/10/12/shabbat-elevator-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-26489</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Durkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jun 2011 23:39:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ourjewishcommunity.org/?p=2687#comment-26489</guid>
		<description>I realize I am a bit late to the table with this opinion.  I am not Jewish but I do understand the idea behind the controversy is that observant Jews are not to do anything causing, or contributing to the use of energy on the Sabbath.  As an elevator mechanic for more than 20 years, I can assure you that in most cases riding an elevator that works automatically does NOT contribute to energy use.  In fact the opposite is true.  This is why:  Assume the elevator has a capacity of 4000 pounds.  The counterweight will weigh exactly the weight of the elevator cab PLUS 40% of the capacity.  In other words, the counterweight would be 1600 pounds heavier than the car.  Unless there was more than 1600 pounds in the elevator, the ride up is FREE in that GRAVITY causes the car to ascend due to the overbalance.  No power is actually consumed.  Power IS consumed while the elevator is DESCENDING because the power is needed to raise the weight.  Riding the elevator down actually reduces the overbalance and thus causes LESS energy to be consumed.  In no way does riding the elevator cause a consumption of energy unless the load in the cab exceeds 40% of the car&#039;s capacity, and then only in the UP direction.  This is true for every traction (cabled) elevator in the United States.  So, in short, walk the stairs for exercise but don&#039;t avoid elevators to save energy.  Riding them saves energy, both the building&#039;s and your own.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I realize I am a bit late to the table with this opinion.  I am not Jewish but I do understand the idea behind the controversy is that observant Jews are not to do anything causing, or contributing to the use of energy on the Sabbath.  As an elevator mechanic for more than 20 years, I can assure you that in most cases riding an elevator that works automatically does NOT contribute to energy use.  In fact the opposite is true.  This is why:  Assume the elevator has a capacity of 4000 pounds.  The counterweight will weigh exactly the weight of the elevator cab PLUS 40% of the capacity.  In other words, the counterweight would be 1600 pounds heavier than the car.  Unless there was more than 1600 pounds in the elevator, the ride up is FREE in that GRAVITY causes the car to ascend due to the overbalance.  No power is actually consumed.  Power IS consumed while the elevator is DESCENDING because the power is needed to raise the weight.  Riding the elevator down actually reduces the overbalance and thus causes LESS energy to be consumed.  In no way does riding the elevator cause a consumption of energy unless the load in the cab exceeds 40% of the car&#8217;s capacity, and then only in the UP direction.  This is true for every traction (cabled) elevator in the United States.  So, in short, walk the stairs for exercise but don&#8217;t avoid elevators to save energy.  Riding them saves energy, both the building&#8217;s and your own.</p>
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		<title>By: CGilbert</title>
		<link>http://www.ourjewishcommunity.org/2009/10/12/shabbat-elevator-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-6219</link>
		<dc:creator>CGilbert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 12:45:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ourjewishcommunity.org/?p=2687#comment-6219</guid>
		<description>Besides the fact that people actually spend time pondering and discussing this (which, I personally believe, is a profound waste of time, but to each his/her own), and the discrimination against the old, the very young, and the infirm of banning elevator usage for 5 minutes, let&#039;s just discuss definitions and look at &quot;pushing a button&quot; and &quot;walking up the stairs&quot; in the context of these definitions:

work  /wɜrk/  –noun 1. exertion or effort directed to produce or accomplish something; labor; toil. 

rest1  /rɛst/  
2. refreshing ease or inactivity after exertion or labor: to allow an hour for rest.  

What am I missing?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Besides the fact that people actually spend time pondering and discussing this (which, I personally believe, is a profound waste of time, but to each his/her own), and the discrimination against the old, the very young, and the infirm of banning elevator usage for 5 minutes, let&#8217;s just discuss definitions and look at &#8220;pushing a button&#8221; and &#8220;walking up the stairs&#8221; in the context of these definitions:</p>
<p>work  /wɜrk/  –noun 1. exertion or effort directed to produce or accomplish something; labor; toil. </p>
<p>rest1  /rɛst/<br />
2. refreshing ease or inactivity after exertion or labor: to allow an hour for rest.  </p>
<p>What am I missing?</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Cademy</title>
		<link>http://www.ourjewishcommunity.org/2009/10/12/shabbat-elevator-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-4930</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Cademy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Oct 2009 16:28:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ourjewishcommunity.org/?p=2687#comment-4930</guid>
		<description>Well, to put in my two cents, I think this whole &quot;what is/isn&#039;t permitted on the Sabbath&quot; boils down to an issue facing judges in our courts every day -- &quot;do we support the letter of the law or the spirit of the law?&quot;  I believe that, when it comes to Shabbat, too much attention is paid to the letter of the law -- can I push this button, turn this knob, etc. -- versus the actual spirit of the law -- is Shabbat supposed to be a day of rest and contemplation?

It seems to me that the law has not kept up with modern technology.  We now have ways of doing less physical work, such as taking an elevator instead of stairs.  Shouldn&#039;t we take the choice which allows us more rest, and more time for contemplation?  If I have to make the effort to push one button instead of the effort of climbing ten stories of stairs, it seems to me that taking the elevator is more in lines with the spirit of Shabbat!  Same for using a computer, or lighting a stove!

The reason I sought out Humanistic Judaism is because it seems to me to be the one branch of Judaism that has most kept up with changing times!  As such, I have no qualms about using modern conveniences on Shabbat, as they enable me to do less work than otherwise!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, to put in my two cents, I think this whole &#8220;what is/isn&#8217;t permitted on the Sabbath&#8221; boils down to an issue facing judges in our courts every day &#8212; &#8220;do we support the letter of the law or the spirit of the law?&#8221;  I believe that, when it comes to Shabbat, too much attention is paid to the letter of the law &#8212; can I push this button, turn this knob, etc. &#8212; versus the actual spirit of the law &#8212; is Shabbat supposed to be a day of rest and contemplation?</p>
<p>It seems to me that the law has not kept up with modern technology.  We now have ways of doing less physical work, such as taking an elevator instead of stairs.  Shouldn&#8217;t we take the choice which allows us more rest, and more time for contemplation?  If I have to make the effort to push one button instead of the effort of climbing ten stories of stairs, it seems to me that taking the elevator is more in lines with the spirit of Shabbat!  Same for using a computer, or lighting a stove!</p>
<p>The reason I sought out Humanistic Judaism is because it seems to me to be the one branch of Judaism that has most kept up with changing times!  As such, I have no qualms about using modern conveniences on Shabbat, as they enable me to do less work than otherwise!</p>
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		<title>By: Pat Chambers</title>
		<link>http://www.ourjewishcommunity.org/2009/10/12/shabbat-elevator-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-4859</link>
		<dc:creator>Pat Chambers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Oct 2009 04:17:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ourjewishcommunity.org/?p=2687#comment-4859</guid>
		<description>It has been fascinating to me since I first studied Judaism years ago to learn how many things are considered &quot;forbidden&quot; on Shabbat. Besides elevators, as mentioned by Rabbi Baum, I&#039;ve known Jews who do not use their computers on Shabbat. I tried this for a couple of weeks, but just could not keep to it, partly because of many of my Jewish &quot;connections&quot; (most recently OJC) are online ones. 

I was raised as a Christian, and remember certain things that were traditionally &quot;forbidden&quot; at times. For instance, even though I attended public school through ninth grade, fish was served on Friday in deference to Roman Catholics. Being an observant Episcopalian, tradition meant also not eating meat on Fridays. Even after Roman Catholicism changed its view to allow meat to be eaten on Fridays (except in the liturgical season of Lent) my family, like many Episcopalians, continued to eat fish or some other meatless meal.

As a young adult, I departed from this tradition once I left home for college. 

There are many traditional rules of Judaism to which I cannot relate because of my own background, they are just not part of my heritage. Even some of the traditional foods found in Jewish celebrations or observances are still a bit foreign to me, though I&#039;ve been a convert to Judaism for a decade now. 

I know what I am sharing is a departure from the main topic of the &quot;Shabbat Elevator Controversy&quot; but again, I write this reply to show how someone who has not followed Jewish tradition for most of their life can find such a topic mystifying, given the modern world in which we live with technological advances. If the &quot;Shabbat Elevator&quot; issue is strictly adhered to by all the Jewish community, wouldn&#039;t that also mean that what we are participating online via Our Jewish Community also be a violation of Shabbat?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It has been fascinating to me since I first studied Judaism years ago to learn how many things are considered &#8220;forbidden&#8221; on Shabbat. Besides elevators, as mentioned by Rabbi Baum, I&#8217;ve known Jews who do not use their computers on Shabbat. I tried this for a couple of weeks, but just could not keep to it, partly because of many of my Jewish &#8220;connections&#8221; (most recently OJC) are online ones. </p>
<p>I was raised as a Christian, and remember certain things that were traditionally &#8220;forbidden&#8221; at times. For instance, even though I attended public school through ninth grade, fish was served on Friday in deference to Roman Catholics. Being an observant Episcopalian, tradition meant also not eating meat on Fridays. Even after Roman Catholicism changed its view to allow meat to be eaten on Fridays (except in the liturgical season of Lent) my family, like many Episcopalians, continued to eat fish or some other meatless meal.</p>
<p>As a young adult, I departed from this tradition once I left home for college. </p>
<p>There are many traditional rules of Judaism to which I cannot relate because of my own background, they are just not part of my heritage. Even some of the traditional foods found in Jewish celebrations or observances are still a bit foreign to me, though I&#8217;ve been a convert to Judaism for a decade now. </p>
<p>I know what I am sharing is a departure from the main topic of the &#8220;Shabbat Elevator Controversy&#8221; but again, I write this reply to show how someone who has not followed Jewish tradition for most of their life can find such a topic mystifying, given the modern world in which we live with technological advances. If the &#8220;Shabbat Elevator&#8221; issue is strictly adhered to by all the Jewish community, wouldn&#8217;t that also mean that what we are participating online via Our Jewish Community also be a violation of Shabbat?</p>
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		<title>By: Marty</title>
		<link>http://www.ourjewishcommunity.org/2009/10/12/shabbat-elevator-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-4732</link>
		<dc:creator>Marty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 00:41:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ourjewishcommunity.org/?p=2687#comment-4732</guid>
		<description>Separating out those who have infirmities and removing &quot;bad genes&quot; from  the community seems anathema.  Haven&#039;t other cultures done this in the past to the detriment of the human race?  Doesn&#039;t that violate the concept that there is that of God in every person?  

Even God visited Abraham when he was sick (Gen 18:1)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Separating out those who have infirmities and removing &#8220;bad genes&#8221; from  the community seems anathema.  Haven&#8217;t other cultures done this in the past to the detriment of the human race?  Doesn&#8217;t that violate the concept that there is that of God in every person?  </p>
<p>Even God visited Abraham when he was sick (Gen 18:1)</p>
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		<title>By: tmana</title>
		<link>http://www.ourjewishcommunity.org/2009/10/12/shabbat-elevator-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-4707</link>
		<dc:creator>tmana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 13:45:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ourjewishcommunity.org/?p=2687#comment-4707</guid>
		<description>In terms of &quot;up, down, infirm, or handicapped&quot;, I think a lot of the issue is one of who is included in the community, who is excluded from it, and why -- and &quot;who is Jewish&quot; is not part of the question.

Biblical texts restrict those who have physical handicaps from proximity to the Ark, and in some cases, the community. (One would presume that -- in addition to Hertz&#039;s commentary about outsider practices of body modification, especially applied to the genitals -- this would separate out those whose infirmities might be either contagious or inheritable, removing the &quot;bad genes&quot; from the community in a generation.)

In that sense, restrictions that would prevent someone who is lame from being able to get to the synagogue would seem to spring from the same purpose. 

In another sense, I can understand Rabbi Baum&#039;s fascination that some would go to this level of discourse around what would seem to be a minor point of practice. On the one hand, this relates back to the idea of the overbearing, punitive, paternalistic G-d that many of us were presented in Sunday School/Talmud Torah -- if we don&#039;t do exactly what He says, we&#039;ll be cursed, but then, if He is the Father and we are His children... don&#039;t children always test the boundaries to see what they can get away with? On the other hand, some folk are honestly excited (in multiple dimensions) by serious debate over what would seem trivialities (BTW, *how many* angels are dancing on that #17 brass silk pin? Did you account for Maxwell&#039;s demons trying to change that number?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In terms of &#8220;up, down, infirm, or handicapped&#8221;, I think a lot of the issue is one of who is included in the community, who is excluded from it, and why &#8212; and &#8220;who is Jewish&#8221; is not part of the question.</p>
<p>Biblical texts restrict those who have physical handicaps from proximity to the Ark, and in some cases, the community. (One would presume that &#8212; in addition to Hertz&#8217;s commentary about outsider practices of body modification, especially applied to the genitals &#8212; this would separate out those whose infirmities might be either contagious or inheritable, removing the &#8220;bad genes&#8221; from the community in a generation.)</p>
<p>In that sense, restrictions that would prevent someone who is lame from being able to get to the synagogue would seem to spring from the same purpose. </p>
<p>In another sense, I can understand Rabbi Baum&#8217;s fascination that some would go to this level of discourse around what would seem to be a minor point of practice. On the one hand, this relates back to the idea of the overbearing, punitive, paternalistic G-d that many of us were presented in Sunday School/Talmud Torah &#8212; if we don&#8217;t do exactly what He says, we&#8217;ll be cursed, but then, if He is the Father and we are His children&#8230; don&#8217;t children always test the boundaries to see what they can get away with? On the other hand, some folk are honestly excited (in multiple dimensions) by serious debate over what would seem trivialities (BTW, *how many* angels are dancing on that #17 brass silk pin? Did you account for Maxwell&#8217;s demons trying to change that number?)</p>
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		<title>By: Joel Katz</title>
		<link>http://www.ourjewishcommunity.org/2009/10/12/shabbat-elevator-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-4702</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel Katz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 09:12:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ourjewishcommunity.org/?p=2687#comment-4702</guid>
		<description>For those readers wanting to stay up-to-date on this issue and all issues of religion and state in Israel, may I suggest visiting &lt;a href=&quot;http://religionandstateinisrael.blogspot.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Religion and State in Israel&lt;/a&gt;.

The updates are weekly - you can sign up for email or RSS feed updates.

If you want daily updates, follow &lt;a href=&quot;http://twitter.com/religion_state&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@religion_state&lt;/a&gt; on Twitter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For those readers wanting to stay up-to-date on this issue and all issues of religion and state in Israel, may I suggest visiting <a href="http://religionandstateinisrael.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">Religion and State in Israel</a>.</p>
<p>The updates are weekly &#8211; you can sign up for email or RSS feed updates.</p>
<p>If you want daily updates, follow <a href="http://twitter.com/religion_state" rel="nofollow">@religion_state</a> on Twitter.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Friedlander</title>
		<link>http://www.ourjewishcommunity.org/2009/10/12/shabbat-elevator-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-4695</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Friedlander</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 05:59:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ourjewishcommunity.org/?p=2687#comment-4695</guid>
		<description>If it were prayer or song we were discussing I believe we could make a good case that either - both, in fact - add to quality and feeling of sharing with friends and family who are with us at services.

However, when we get to Halachic law we are in a realm that has no hope of adding to the quality  or feeling of the Shabbat.   Not turning a switch, using an appliance, riding a car do not add to the quality of the experience of Shabbat.  Rather they supply the observer of such laws the satisfaction of following customs that have been passed down over two millenia.  They, indeed, make the follower feel he (she) is a better Jew. And that&#039;s fine with me.    

When, however, I am in a hotel in Jerusalem and have to walk ten floors on Shabbat because the elevator is closed to all, then other customs are being imposed on me.  It&#039;s selfish and thoughtless (and will certainly help keep conversions down.)

The solution for the Jerusalem hotel owner is to make sure the stairs are open and available to those who want to walk them and that the elevators are running for the rest of us so we can save our energy for listening and watching &quot;Our Jewish Community&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If it were prayer or song we were discussing I believe we could make a good case that either &#8211; both, in fact &#8211; add to quality and feeling of sharing with friends and family who are with us at services.</p>
<p>However, when we get to Halachic law we are in a realm that has no hope of adding to the quality  or feeling of the Shabbat.   Not turning a switch, using an appliance, riding a car do not add to the quality of the experience of Shabbat.  Rather they supply the observer of such laws the satisfaction of following customs that have been passed down over two millenia.  They, indeed, make the follower feel he (she) is a better Jew. And that&#8217;s fine with me.    </p>
<p>When, however, I am in a hotel in Jerusalem and have to walk ten floors on Shabbat because the elevator is closed to all, then other customs are being imposed on me.  It&#8217;s selfish and thoughtless (and will certainly help keep conversions down.)</p>
<p>The solution for the Jerusalem hotel owner is to make sure the stairs are open and available to those who want to walk them and that the elevators are running for the rest of us so we can save our energy for listening and watching &#8220;Our Jewish Community&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: David Schwartz</title>
		<link>http://www.ourjewishcommunity.org/2009/10/12/shabbat-elevator-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-4687</link>
		<dc:creator>David Schwartz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 02:47:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ourjewishcommunity.org/?p=2687#comment-4687</guid>
		<description>fascinating!

Why would God insist on rules like this?  It seems the choices are &quot;Shabbat Elevator,&quot; &quot;No Elevator&quot; or &quot;Shabbat Elevator up only.&quot;  

How do any of these choices contribute to life?  How do any of these provide a service to God?  

I know the traditional answer.  &quot;we will DO and then we will understand.&quot;  This kind of answer satisfies no one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>fascinating!</p>
<p>Why would God insist on rules like this?  It seems the choices are &#8220;Shabbat Elevator,&#8221; &#8220;No Elevator&#8221; or &#8220;Shabbat Elevator up only.&#8221;  </p>
<p>How do any of these choices contribute to life?  How do any of these provide a service to God?  </p>
<p>I know the traditional answer.  &#8220;we will DO and then we will understand.&#8221;  This kind of answer satisfies no one.</p>
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		<title>By: Cynthia Tyler</title>
		<link>http://www.ourjewishcommunity.org/2009/10/12/shabbat-elevator-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-4685</link>
		<dc:creator>Cynthia Tyler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 02:28:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ourjewishcommunity.org/?p=2687#comment-4685</guid>
		<description>Why do elevators even have to become part of the 
discussion? Why can&#039;t we leave it at don&#039;t hitch
up the oxen and plow nothin&#039; on Saturday...

Let&#039;s be sensible - and do what we can to respect the ill, the infirm, even the unfit and downright lazy, and if it takes an elevator to get them to
shul, Hashem&#039;s blessings be on the machines and
their creators. 
Is pushing buttons even on the list of 39 things you can&#039;t do?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why do elevators even have to become part of the<br />
discussion? Why can&#8217;t we leave it at don&#8217;t hitch<br />
up the oxen and plow nothin&#8217; on Saturday&#8230;</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s be sensible &#8211; and do what we can to respect the ill, the infirm, even the unfit and downright lazy, and if it takes an elevator to get them to<br />
shul, Hashem&#8217;s blessings be on the machines and<br />
their creators.<br />
Is pushing buttons even on the list of 39 things you can&#8217;t do?</p>
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